drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  28

  HELP I need some ex-elders help for a phone conversation with my JW parents

  by cyberjesus in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  ok this is the deal: i was dfd 14 years ago, i was just planning to go back last year.

  i had planned to come back with a clean conscience so i started to study and research the wt to prove to myself this was the truth, the elders had met with me to suggest me to submit a letter of reinstatement, in the same meeting i told them i had some questions that i needed help with before i was to go back.

  they said they were gonna answer those questions after i was reinstated :-d so i went by myself and started doing my research.

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  drew sagan

  Wow! Now THERE'S a PLAN!!!

  I was thinking the same thing too. That must be one of the funniest things i've read on this board in a long time (no offense to the bad situation that cyberjesus is stuck in).
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  28

  HELP I need some ex-elders help for a phone conversation with my JW parents

  by cyberjesus in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  ok this is the deal: i was dfd 14 years ago, i was just planning to go back last year.

  i had planned to come back with a clean conscience so i started to study and research the wt to prove to myself this was the truth, the elders had met with me to suggest me to submit a letter of reinstatement, in the same meeting i told them i had some questions that i needed help with before i was to go back.

  they said they were gonna answer those questions after i was reinstated :-d so i went by myself and started doing my research.

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  drew sagan

  If you just learned "the truth about the truth" these JWs will walk all over you. You are a "newbie" to all of this.

  It is best just to say that after a lot of honest consideration you have made the decision that the JWs are not for you. Leave it at that. Say that you don't have to agree in order to love one another. If they pressure you to speak you should just refuse and say that you know everything the Watchtower has to say and you simply remain unconvinced at this time. Be strong in holding the position that nothing they can say will change your mind.

  You've been DF'd for 14 years, how has your relationship been with them? Have they accepted you?
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  57

  Evil lying Manipulators OR Captive Duped Slaves Duping Others (or some of both)?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see many threads that address this issue, but i still don't have a clear thought on this.

  so i want your help.. the governing body misleads the members- no doubt.

  they do change some of their history to make the wt organization look smarter or better-guided by "jehovah.

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  drew sagan

  Many put an envelope in his hand. Some make sure he knows who gave the green handshake, others just think it's so wonderful to have the full-time servant visit and give, thinking that he needs it.

  Reminds me of a time when my KH passed a resolution to pay for a Bethel Elder to fly in from NY and give the memorial talk. It was the only time I voted 'no' on a resolution.

  Changing subjects, I think that a major component that should not be overlooked is that of self-esteem.

  The Watchtower system allows people (specifically older men) the possiblity to gain positions where they are given respect, dignity and value. Any man given such a position whether it is MS, Elder, PO, DO, CO, or important Bethel position has a sort of 'status' that becomes a representation of his own self worth. Men that climb this "corporate ladder" are given a great many social rewards. Many social institutions have this, it is not something unique to JWs. Sometimes these rewards come at a great cost to the individual. I know of two men that spent most of their lives up untill their early 30's slaving for the Watchtower, hoping to get into a good position.

  And don't forget, they also get satisfaction by believing they are doing gods will. You cannot subtract this element, although it seems that as ex-jws we sometimes like to think that altruism isn't an important factor.
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  57

  Evil lying Manipulators OR Captive Duped Slaves Duping Others (or some of both)?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see many threads that address this issue, but i still don't have a clear thought on this.

  so i want your help.. the governing body misleads the members- no doubt.

  they do change some of their history to make the wt organization look smarter or better-guided by "jehovah.

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  drew sagan

  Don't know if this comment will gather any attention (like my last post ahem...) but I just want to emphasize something.

  Most Watchtower leaders of the past few decades have been followers of the "masters" so to speak. Doctrine has been tweaked, but never has it undergone some of the huge transitions that litter Watchtower history. Even the major "generation" change in 95 was forced, not by the inspiration of individuals, but instead by the passage of time.

  Like most individual 'rank and file' JWs, I would expect WTS leaders (including the GB) to strongly defend a good bit of Watchtower doctrine. Topics such as the use of the name Jehovah, exsistance of hellfire, immortal soul, use of the cross, and pagan christmas provide enough evidence in and of themselves that the Witnesses are "the truth".

  It does not take that much intellectual power to believe that the above mentioned arguments prove you have "the truth". According to Watchtower statistics, millions of people do this every day .

  What most of you here seem to believe is that those "at the top" somehow have a different perspective on the religion than the adverage members. Of course they do! They are the damn leaders. But they are restricted by tradition and circumstance. They cannot act out of a certain framework. Even on the governing body, the members most likely expect each other to live up to a certain dedication to the traditions of the faith. In essence, the same social pressue that holds captive the membership most likely restricts and directs the actions of the leadership. Living within such a system, I doubt very much that any leader has much incentive to deviate from traditionally held narratives and ideas. Those men have lived their whole lives to get into those positions, what motivation do they have to "rock the boat" so to speak? Instead, it seems that the institutional structure itself encourages the maintinence of the status quo.

  No great conspiracy. No great "evil" per se. Just another institution bound by traditions and ideology.

  Just my
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  57

  Evil lying Manipulators OR Captive Duped Slaves Duping Others (or some of both)?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see many threads that address this issue, but i still don't have a clear thought on this.

  so i want your help.. the governing body misleads the members- no doubt.

  they do change some of their history to make the wt organization look smarter or better-guided by "jehovah.

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  drew sagan

  One problem with the governing body is that there is a tendency to group them as one entity.

  As Raymond Franz has revealed, there may just be more complexity to the situation. Some members may believe a great deal, others may have the kind of cheerful indifference that AllTimeJeff is speaking about. Essentially, the composition of the GB is potentially either homogeneous or heterogeneous. We really do not know. We do know that the body has been favoring more "organizational" men, but what does that really mean? It could possibly mean that some of the new members are potentially even more dedicated to the beliefs that we even realize, while older members less so.

  Here is something else to think about. One major thing that is brought up over and over is the occasion that Ray Franz brings up regarding 1914 and sputnik (1957 I believe). This came at a time when the GB had gotten a new sense of power that it did not have before. It may just be that some members on the governing body wanted to see how far they could exercise that power. Essentially, they may have wanted to "play grown up" by doing things that only powerful watchtower leaders could do (i.e. Russell, Rutherford, Franz). In this way they would be more like leaders, rather than followers. When this fell through, they ended up being more like followers. The doctranal changes since that time only seek to alter fixed beliefs that were setup by the "powerful" WT leaders.
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  4

  You must see this video... please comment

  by Albert Einstein in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you think about this?.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmqhyeacqs4.

  albert.

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  drew sagan

  It's a spoof created to promote the new "dante's inferno" video game.
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  22

  I never believed in demons

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for the entire time i was a jw (1999-2007) i never believed in demons.. a few times i remember this getting me into small confrontations with jws.

  a jw would talk about how demons were scary and powerful.

  i would argue that i've never seen a demon, and that to be affraid of such things was silly.

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  drew sagan

  I think you nailed it SNG. Stories about "real" demon encounters provide evidence of supernatural phenomena to those that believe.

  Which gets me thinking.

  Say you are an atheist. You tell a believer that you don't believe in demons because you have never seen them. The believer then replies "demons would never appear to you because they know it would convince you to believe in god!"

  I believe I have heard JWs say as much. Around and around it goes.
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  22

  I never believed in demons

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for the entire time i was a jw (1999-2007) i never believed in demons.. a few times i remember this getting me into small confrontations with jws.

  a jw would talk about how demons were scary and powerful.

  i would argue that i've never seen a demon, and that to be affraid of such things was silly.

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  drew sagan

  Thanks for the link trueblue, I'll make sure to check it out if I have nothing left to live for...
• 
  22

  I never believed in demons

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for the entire time i was a jw (1999-2007) i never believed in demons.. a few times i remember this getting me into small confrontations with jws.

  a jw would talk about how demons were scary and powerful.

  i would argue that i've never seen a demon, and that to be affraid of such things was silly.

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  drew sagan

  For the entire time I was a JW (1999-2007) I never believed in demons.

  A few times I remember this getting me into small confrontations with JWs. A JW would talk about how demons were scary and powerful. I would argue that I've never seen a demon, and that to be affraid of such things was silly. They would argue back that I was "careless" and could be putting myself in danger.

  Before I was a JW I remember playing ouija board. I remember pushing the planchette towards certain letters and words as a joke. "Are you stupid?" I would ask, as I pushed the planchette towards the word "yes". My friend was terrified that I was potentially irritating spirits, I found it to be one giant farce.

  This attitude never left me. Even during my most dedicated moments as a JW I would cringe when talk of oujie boards, spirits and demons were discussed as being dangerous.

  In the end, I think South Park summed it up the best:

  http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/251866
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  20

  More Evangelical Protestants in the U.S. than Mainline Protestants

  by leavingwt in

  1. social
  2. current

  according to pew, there are now more evangelical protestants in the united states than mainline protestants.

  thankfully, the jws hardly register in the grand scheme of things, below.. .

  some say we are witnessing the death of "intellectual protestantism".. lets face it: so far as the great mass of american protestants are concerned, theology is a dead letter.

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  drew sagan

  Many of the mainline protestant churches are now identifying themselves as evangelical, like the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.